Comments on: The Crazy Horse

By: monclerjacketssale

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By: E

Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:09:43 +0000

So blog posts that elicit a hundred hate-filled anti-semitic responses don’t mean anything because they are from “fringe” semi-literate “trolls” but you recording 6 or 7 drunk American teenagers on the streets of Jerusalem is supposed to reflect badly on all of Israel?

By: abba422

abba422 — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:52:32 +0000

Poyani,
Great response. I’ll be back later this evening when I get out of work, and I’ll be glad to respond.
Thanks! Have a great day, friend.

By: abba422

abba422 — Mon, 26 Jul 2010 12:51:43 +0000

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-right-s-strategy-of-phases-1.304061

The right’s strategy of phases
Most of the Jewish public perceives the refusal by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to accede to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s demand to recognize Israel as the Jewish state prior to negotiations and a final agreement as evidence of a hidden agenda. For them, this agenda is based on a ’strategy of phases’ and the aspiration to destroy Israel as a Zionist state.
By Shaul Arieli

Most of the Jewish public perceives the refusal by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to accede to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s demand to recognize Israel as the Jewish state prior to negotiations and a final agreement as evidence of a hidden agenda. For them, this agenda is based on a “strategy of phases” and the aspiration to destroy Israel as a Zionist state.

But many who believe so are blind to a process in which, under cover of the demand to recognize Israel as the “Jewish state,” another state is developing here – one which is alien to the Zionist vision of the “founding fathers” and is leading to that vision’s demise. Therefore, before seeking such recognition from the Palestinians, the Israeli public ought to first clarify with itself what kind of Jewish state it wants. It should demand that the prime minister work to shape the state according to this perception, and it should be prepared to pay a “painful price” for it.

We must decide whether the Zionist impetus for establishing Israel and its reason for existence relate to the need for a safe haven for the Jewish people (which Theodor Herzl was prepared to realize through sovereignty in any territory ), or perhaps “we settled … because we were commanded to inherit the land,” according to the doctrine of the disciples of Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook.

Historical Zionism viewed the state as a modern tool that would ensure the existence of the Jewish people through the ingathering of exiles and building a society that enjoys sovereignty, a Jewish majority, national security, and economic and social strength. As these elements are more important than historical territory, the borders of a state established according to this vision have no religious sanctity.

In order to achieve the goals of Zionism, its elected institutions have legitimacy and authority to concede parts of the homeland, just as David Ben-Gurion, Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Rabin and Ariel Sharon did.

In contrast, leaders of the Gush Emunim settlement movement through the years have believed that the ingathering of exiles, establishment of the state and maintaining its security are merely initial layers in the process of the Jewish people’s redemption, the completion of which requires conquering the whole country. In their view, the Knesset and government have no legitimate authority to relinquish what was divinely promised to the Jewish people. Lately we’ve even been told that the land is “the wife” which must be clung to in its entirety – even at the price of conceding the Jewish state, which is no more than the temporary “handmaiden.”

Israelis must decide if they want a state that is part of the family of nations, that recognizes international law and the decisions of the international community, or a state in which “the historic right” of the Jewish people overrides every other right – including human rights, civil rights and community rights – and legitimizes ruling over the Palestinian people, dispossessing them and discriminating against them.

In other words, do we want a state based on the foundations of freedom, justice and peace that maintains social and political equality, or a state in which, in the words of the late Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren, no law – national or international – can infringe on the Jews’ ownership and proprietary rights, according to Torah law, over the entire Land of Israel? The practical meaning of such a question is whether Israel should seek peace and pursue it, or adopt the position that says seeking peace harms security and we must therefore “empty the land of its inhabitants.”

Zionism means a democratic state of the Jewish people, in which a Jewish majority lives alongside an Arab minority with equal rights. It means a state that is part of the family of nations. In order to realize the goals of Zionism, we must relinquish 22 percent of the Land of Israel.

By contrast, the vision of the right is none other than a “strategy of phases” to eliminate the Zionist vision – by sanctifying land more than life, by casting a pall over Zionism and by turning Israel into a pariah state. .

By: walt kovacs

walt kovacs — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 21:31:49 +0000

thats right…blame america for all the problems in the arab world

cuz we all know the arabs are children and incapable of controlling their own destinies.

absurd

By: poyani

poyani — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 17:01:48 +0000

abba422,

It depends on what you mean by saying “America’s relationship with Israel does NOT serve OUR interests, in fact, it only HARMS us”.

Technically speaking, the relationship between the US and Israel does serve the interest of Imperialists in the US. Israel has a very distinct role in the American empire, which few other countries can fill.

Back in the 1950s, president Eisenhower commissioned a study to understand why Muslims all over the world were beginning to hate the US (at the time Eisenhower was facing 3 worldwide crises in Africa, the Middle East and Indonesia – all three countries in question were muslim oil producing countries).

The study’s conclusions were summarized by a member of that administration as “there is a campaign of hatred against us in the Muslims world, not by their rulers, but by their people, because they feel that the US maintains status-quo dictatorships, and prevents democracy and development.” The report went on to state that it was difficult to counter this perception because it was actually true (see the various unpopular Kings the US supports in countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Jordan, and at the time Iran and Indonesia).

Furthermore, other geostrategic reports from the State department in 1954 were referring to the Persian Gulf as “a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history” and would further state that control over the Persian Gulf’s resources would yield “unilateral world domination” and that it would allow a “veto over competing emerging economies”.

In order to bolster the strategy of control, so not to rely on a series of unpopular and shaky Arab dictators, the US government began to rely on a secondary plan. They began to support what Nixon would later call “local cops on the beat”, comprised of Iran, Turkey, and Israel. Three non-Arab countries which physically separate the oil rich Arab states from the rest of the world, and who could be counted on to crush any attempts by Arab peoples to escape their bondage.

The US began to arm Israel, Iran and Turkey very heavily, to create a military imbalance between them and the Arabs. Israel did a huge favour to the American Imperialists by completely discrediting Nasser’s pan-Arabist movement, essentially removing the greatest threats to nations like Saudi Arabia (but too late for Iraq – to this day the US has not been able to reinsert Iraq back into bondage after Pan-Arab nationalists overthrew the US backed King of that country).

The situation today is very different. Both Iran and Turkey have rejected their role as local “cops on the beat”. Only Israel, due to its constant movement to the right and towards fascism, has become more and more dependent on the US. This actually serves US interests.

Most people make the mistake of thinking that Israel is a strategic liability because it creates hatred between the Arabs and the US. This is false. The US government does not care about the hatred of Arab people. They are not relevant. They are considered ants sitting on top of piles of oil which are of monumental strategic importance.

The Arab people would hate the US regardless of Israel anyways. The US supports their dictators and arms them in order to crush the populace and prevent democracy. Take a look at Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, and a host of other western armed dictatorships where the leaders regularly torture and murder their own citizens.

Israel has nothing to do with this. Israel’s ultimate goal is to ensure the “stability” of the region, by preventing any international/Arab movement that would lead to the liberation of Saudi Arabia. In the end it is serving its role competently and hence is serving the interest of imperialists in the United States.

The interest of the American imperialists is in direct contradiction of the interest of American people like you, but that is another discussion altogether.

By: abba422

abba422 — Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:40:11 +0000

Poyani,
Thank you for the excellent question, and for your well thought out and articulate post. I really do appreciate the effort.
There is a reality on the ground that only “fanatics and Utopians” don’t accept, to use your very apt terms. Unfortunately, that reality is based on a very frightening level of racism or supremacism that is completely contrary to our American Ideals, which in all honesty is what most matters to me.
It’s no secret to anyone except the hardcore Israeli apologists that repeatedly stated unwavering American support and FEALTY to Israel harms America in so many ways. A large part of Anti-American sentiment in the Middle East and elsewhere is directly related to American loyalty to the foreign state.
And modern Zionism is regularly manifested through increasingly unacceptable and violent actions carried out by the Zio-Fascist Settler movement, which is increasingly becoming mainstream, and through the actions of the State, which provides protection to the violence of Settlers against innocent Palestinians and punishes the victims of that violence.
That’s what modern Zionism has become. The ugly side which was ALWAYS there, even in ‘48, is even more blatant, more out in the open, and less contrite about itself. Israel simply has no shame
Zionism as a concept does not include establishing a “Jewish Homeland” (the very concept is an anachronism, about a century too late), because Israel has been established for over half a century, it’s borders (??) are very secure, it’s economy and military, thanks to US largess, are both stable. So what does modern Zionism mean??
Take a look. Modern Zionism means racism. It means Ethnic Cleansing. It means low grade pogroms and Settler-style mini-Krystallnachts throughout the occupied West Bank. It means collective punishment. It means threats, kidnappings, beatings, imprisonment, and general harassment against a population whose sole crime was to be born and reside on THEIR ancestral lands and homes, property which incidentally has more legal standing than the Zionists’ claims of a “divine property deed” or whatever other ancient mythological nonsense they use to justify their inhumanity towards the innocent.

The Zionist Apologists’ claims of peace loving Israel having “no partner” is more of that same nonsense. For years now the Arab League has repeatedly put forth it’s own peace plan as a starting point for negotiations, with an eventual end result of full normalization and diplomatic recognition of poor little victim Israel, and what’s the Zionist response? Ignore, it, completely. Is that what Zionism stands for too? Blatant lies? Apparently so, because that’s what Zionists have repeatedly done.

Ultimately, all of this behavior can end virtually overnight. Have you ever seen the movie A Christmas Story? Forgive me for using this analogy, but it has always come to mind when thinking of the US/ Israeli relationship.

In this movie, there is a neighborhood bully that terrifies all the kids. He’s bigger, he tougher, and quick to use violence. The bully also has a little sidekick, a toady, who’s the same size as the other kids, and is not really a threat at all, save for the fact that he’s ALWAYS with the bully, so no one dares take him on.

America is that bully, and Israel is that inflated toady sidekick. Without the American monolith casting a large and menacing shadow, Israel would be forced to behave NORMALLY, like the rest of the modern Western world does, forced to make peace with it’s neighbors, adhering to the rule of law, and no longer the recipient of artificial income that keeps it’s coffers full, allowing the perpetual hubris that permeates everything Israel does.

Personally, I don’t care whether Israel survives or not. The only thing I care about is MY country, and frankly, America’s relationship with Israel does NOT serve OUR interests, in fact, it only HARMS us.

By: poyani

poyani — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:21:37 +0000

abba422,

While I agree with the jist of your comment (especially regarding the extremist of some Israeli-apologists and your point regarding adhering to international law) I must ask, what do you define as “Anti-Zionism”?

Pro-Israeli fanatics use the word in a very broad sense. They claim that those who oppose Israeli government policies are “anti-Zionist” and that this is by extension a form of antisemitism. The argument is of-course total nonsense and can be dismissed without consideration.

But what does “anti-Zionist” actually mean? Zionism was the idea that established the state of Israel. In that sense, is anti-Zionism an idea which proposed dismantling the state of Israel? If so, then I am not “anti-Zionists”. Neither are most other critics.

A large majority of people in the world want a two-state solution to the conflict. Only two catagories of people reject this.

One category are right-wing fanatics like Walt Kovaks and Osama Bin Laden, who would prefer an ethnically pure solution. They are outright racists.

The other group are Utopians who believe a single democratic state can be brought into existence to accommodate both people. Their idea is admirable but not practical.

But I would only consider a small minority within the first group to be “anti-Zionist” according to the definition above.

By: DICKERSON3870

DICKERSON3870 — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:22:14 +0000

RE: I read the piece twice and could not find any instances of “Jew baiting” by Smith’s targets.- Blumenthal
MY COMMENT: Speaking of “Jew baiting”, take a gander at this interesting response (comment) to Lee Smith’s Tablet column, “Mainstreaming Hate”.

Jordy2010 says:
Jul 21, 2010 at 8:16 PM
Arent Jewish far-left loons the same kind of monsters who organized the Soviet-Union and are responsible for the deaths of over 100 million human beings???? I see no difference between them and neo-nazis…… when they come into a chatroom they all hate Jews!!! The Mossad shud take care of anti-Israel jews……

LINK – http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/40064/mainstreaming-hate/comment-page-3/#comment-83447

By: Rowan Berkeley

Rowan Berkeley — Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:56:31 +0000

I don’t really appreciate being classified as a “semi-literate comment troll” who writes “screeds”, Max.