Time and again, there has been collateral damage, it’s true. And time and again, Hamas has used civilians as cover.

“Israel is colonizing Palestine. No it’s not colonizing Gaza. It does control Gaza’s borders. It controls the airspace. It can go in and out whenever it chooses to”

Again, why hasn’t Israel annexed the West Bank? Why would Israel spend years at the peace table? It has no incentive to do either, unless, of course, colonialism is not its aim.

“I couldn’t care less about ‘name-calling’. If Israel can get away with killing civilians – among them, 300ish children – on a regular basis, whether it be in the OT or in Lebanon, then Zionist trolls on the web can deal with being called Zionist trolls.”

Civilians tend to die in military conflict. That doesn’t make it illegal. What is illegal is purposefully targeting civilians like Hamas does, and what is morally bankrupt is to defend that practice and pretend that the government of the country whose civilians are targeted have no right to respond.

“The issue of Hamas’s charter is a Zionist talking-point. In any situation where a Palestinian solidarity activist was conveying their perspective to a uninformed audience, they should stress that Hamas and the Arab world have agree to the 67? borders and want to resolve the conflict. Meanwhile, Israel in action is expanding the settlements and dodging peace efforts by Obama, etc. etc.”

I guess it’s a talking point as long as you don’t know or care about people who were killed through Hamas’s antisemitic ideology. If you believe that Hamas would accept the ‘67 borders, especially given that the height of their suicide bombing has come at the height of peace talks, you are simply naive.

“What will happen is One-State solution where Jewish racists and supremacists will be forced to give up their privileged status on land they stole from the indigenous Palestinian”

Uh-huh. Whatever makes you feel good.

“You are the enemy. A partisan hack, who mystifies the conflict by talking about crude rockets, that killed 13-18 people in 8 years.”

You, of course, are not a partisan hack. How many dead people is enough for Israel to respond?

Lots of sources, in-depth discussion.

http://talknic.wordpress.com/myths-mis-conceptions-propaganda/

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/02/human-rights-groups-say-israel-and-hamas-fail-in-investigations.html#comment-148206

There are my incomplete comments on Gaza.

Really? Each and every one? Do tell.

You seem so sure that each and every shell fired by the IDF are for Hamas. That each and every IDF bullet is for Hamas too, I imagine.

“This is why it is a bad idea to terrorize the civilians a state with a much stronger army than yours. Is action justified only when Israeli suffering becomes worse than Palestinian suffering?”

The suffering is disproportionately against the Palestinians.

It does not matter who Hamas targets, Israel would still respond with the same brutality and cruelty aimed at the civilian population and civilian infrastructure. Time and time again, Israel has killed civilians. Only to use well-known tropes of this conflict such as ‘human shields’ or ‘firing from mosques’.

Israel is colonizing Palestine. No it’s not colonizing Gaza. It does control Gaza’s borders. It controls the airspace. It can go in and out whenever it chooses to.

Israel destroyed Gaza’s economy. It purposefully de-developed Gaza’s economy.

“I’m curious as to how Israel can be colonizing a place it withdrew from. Capitalizing the word “colonizing” does not make you more right. Neither does engaging in childish name-calling.”

I couldn’t care less about ‘name-calling’. If Israel can get away with killing civilians – among them, 300ish children – on a regular basis, whether it be in the OT or in Lebanon, then Zionist trolls on the web can deal with being called Zionist trolls.

You do not need to occupy a piece of land to control it. Israel exerts it’s force over Gaza whenever it wants. It controls Gaza. It is blockading Gaza.

And yes, Israel is colonizing Palestine. The settlements are illegal under international law. Israel is stealing Palestinian land and resources.

“You don’t want to waste time talking with those who disagree with you? That’s great. Your movement will stay tiny and irrelevant, be condemned as racist by anyone familiar with EU discrimination laws and be condemned as hypocritical by anyone who has read the Hamas charter or has read a history of the conflict not written by a left-wing ideologue.”

The issue of Hamas’s charter is a Zionist talking-point. In any situation where a Palestinian solidarity activist was conveying their perspective to a uninformed audience, they should stress that Hamas and the Arab world have agree to the 67′ borders and want to resolve the conflict. Meanwhile, Israel in action is expanding the settlements and dodging peace efforts by Obama, etc. etc.

Furthermore, the charter and the other verbiage by Hamas pales in comparison to Israel’s actions.

Not sure what you’re point is. I sure hope you don’t think you’re ‘winning’.

What will happen is One-State solution where Jewish racists and supremacists will be forced to give up their privileged status on land they stole from the indigenous Palestinian.

If what you said earlier is true (it is) – about how a weaker actor should not attack a stronger actor, because of the consequences – then the Palestinians have nothing to lose.

Non-violent resistance is suppressed. The occupation and colonization continue.

No amount of paternalistic myopia (which you and other Zionist trolls, who think of themselves as ‘ME experts’) is going to change the basic realities of this conflict.

If Palestinians are already suffering – no matter what they do – then they should focus on One-State. So yea, there really isn’t a reason to engage in dialogue with Zionists like yourself.

You are the enemy. A partisan hack, who mystifies the conflict by talking about crude rockets, that killed 13-18 people in 8 years.

Whereas, the force and violence is overwhelmingly directed at the Palestinian civilian population.

This is an occupation. This is not about Radical Islam or throwing Jews into the sea or Hamas’s charter. This is about LAND.

And once again, it is a fact of life that the Israelis suffer less than the residents of Gaza. This is why it is a bad idea to terrorize the civilians a state with a much stronger army than yours. Is action justified only when Israeli suffering becomes worse than Palestinian suffering?

I’m curious as to how Israel can be colonizing a place it withdrew from. Capitalizing the word “colonizing” does not make you more right. Neither does engaging in childish name-calling.

Who is feeding you a “Zionist” perspective? What about this perspective is Zionist?

You don’t want to waste time talking with those who disagree with you? That’s great. Your movement will stay tiny and irrelevant, be condemned as racist by anyone familiar with EU discrimination laws and be condemned as hypocritical by anyone who has read the Hamas charter or has read a history of the conflict not written by a left-wing ideologue.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/06/19/israel-gaza-beach-investigation-ignores-evidence

Read this report from HRW.

Zionists like to mention the number of rockets fired by Hamas.

The sheer numbers have a superficial rhetorical effect (aimed at morons/racists/partisan hacks) that compensates for the simple fact that Israel is inflicting more misery and damage and has suffered less.

Israel’s blockade of Gaza is affecting 1.5 million people much more adversely than the crude rockets fired by Hamas.

Israel is COLONIZING Palestine.

The West Bank has been completely fragmented. No viable Palestinian State can exist now.

Gaza’s economy was destroyed by Israel. Read Sara Roy’s book on this subject. Etc. etc.

Forget debating these ZioTools.

Read as much as you can about this conflict. It’s disgusting how we’re fed the Zionist perspective only in the US.

Organize and protest. Support BDS. Don’t waste time talking to people who justify ethnic cleansing, mass murder, colonization, racism, etc. etc. etc.

Read the ‘World Union of Jewish Students’ “Hasbara Manual: Promoting Israel on Campus” to understand how they frame this conflict.

You spoke about reaching the lowest depths of a Palestinian, so I assumed you were a Palestinian. I apologize.

“me: whether my argument is valid or invalid based on legal and moral codes, once again, is irrelavent. why? because as we all know, legally, israel abides only by its laws, no one elses. morally, israelis always claim the moral high ground based on what was promised to them. legally and morally, it does not change the fact of my original post. which means that my post is a fact.”

I’m not quite sure how you can say that legal and moral codes don’t matter and then chastise Israel for not observing them.

Israel claims the moral high ground based on its history, its status as a world’s only Jewish state in a neighborhood of 22 Muslim Arab states, the region’s only democracy, the region’s most progressive society, and many other grounds. It is not just about the Bible.

Telling me about the subjective feelings of the Palestinians is not “fact.”

” the next step is, what, why, and how are the palestinians chosing to join hamas rather than fatah. this is what you and the israelis should be asking yourselves. once you find the answers, then you’ll be able to understand your ‘palestinian enemy’.”

I understand why. I’m well aware of Fatah corruption. I know not every Palestinian is a terrorist. I think the Palestinians are terribly led, and for years have been told that they can simply out-wait the Jews, when they will eventually outnumber them, and then massacre them. Thus, they place little emphasis on building their own society. The Jews were also under occupation before 1948. It was not the most benign occupation either. The Jews used the time to develop a civil society and a working government, so that when the occupation ended, Israel was ready to go.

“sorry, but you cant bring up the holocaust card whenever you want and not be responsible for ‘diluting’ the events of the holocaust. you (and the israelis) do it no honor (nor the victims) by using it continously to justify your behavior to the palestinians. any ethnicity can claim to being persecuted. the reaction of the persecuted is subjective. while the palestinians find that their form of resistance to persecution is suicide bombing, the natives in bolivia found that resisitance to persecution was to elect a native as president. its subjective and depends on the situation and options available to them. while i do not condone firing rockets from gaza, i do however i understand why. they were freely-elected, by their people. and no one gave them a chance to behave appropiately as a responsible government should. on the contrary happend. you and the israelis would have been pleasantly surprised how, once a party is in power, they are actually limited in scope of how they can behave. and just in case what i just wrote didnt sink in, i’ll go ahead and provide you with several examples that prove your point ”much worse examples of persecution where the persecuted did not resort to killing innocent people en masse.” the ira, the radical sikh movement in india, and once again the tutsi and huti massacres in rhwanda.”

I’m not “playing the Holocaust card.” Holocaust is with a capital “H”, by the way. I’m merely using it as one historical example of persecution. The Holocaust did happen, and it can be used as a point of historical comparison in a discussion about the tactics of the oppressed.

It’s funny that you compare the Bolivian response to persecution with the Palestinian response and call it “subjective.” The Bolivian response is both legal and admirable. The Palestinian response is illegal and self-defeating.

“me: the purpose of bringing up the armenians, hutus and tutsis was that if israel was as compassionate is it claims to be, why didnt they do anything to mediate, shelter the persecuted? and to answer your question, yes. syria and lebanon have a striving armenian community. and yes, the uae has invested in rhwanda’s infrastructure which in turn creates jobs and increases wages and enhances the standard of living. and no, you are wrong or you’ve failed to mention one word when you wrote ‘Israel has taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees,’. you’ve failed to include the word jewish. and no you are wrong when you wrote ‘ more than any Arab state I know of’. clearly you dont know how many iraqi refugees there are, or palestinian refugees, or kurdish refugees. maybe, for your statement to be true, you would need to accept the palestinians into your country.”

The Armenian massacre took place in 1915. Israel did not become a country until 1948. If you’d like to compare the aid Arab countries have given around the world to Israeli aid as percentage of GDP, I’m quite sure the Arabs will come up wanting. In terms of contribution to the world’s good, there is no comparison. Or should I pull out the statistics about Israeli patents and Nobel Prize winners?

I’m glad the UAE gave something to Rwanda. You don’t appear to be familiar with the massive amount of humanitarian aid Israel gave to Rwanda refugees, including a 120-bed field hospital and 8 Hercules planes filled with humanitarian aid, while Israeli donations totalled around $15 million dollars (60 million shekels).