38 thoughts on “Gaza, Never Forget

  1. wlonw

    What can you say? These people could make it easy to be anti-semitic. Thankfully I know that there are many Jews, here, and even in Israel, who aren’t dedicated to hate and murder. But the numbers and influence these hate mongers have here in the U.S. is tragic. Anyone who can see beyond this insanity needs to speak up for a rational, open – hearted solution to the problem, and these people must not be empowered in their hate. What difference is there between them and Sara Palin’s trashy, ignorant followers? They’re cut from the same cloth.

  2. hophmi

    Again, these people are not exactly reflective of the mainstream Jewish population, and again, it would be simple to go to a pro-Palestinian rally and find people willing to say anti-Jewish things, compare Israel to Nazi Germany, and so on. And the comparison of circumcision with the self-inflicted wounds that are part of extreme Shi’a celebrations of Ashoura is pretty ignorant on your part, especially given that Muslims practice circumcision. Ritual circumcision is not very controversial anymore, given its status as a very old practice frequently used as an excuse for persecuting its practitioners, and given that it causes no harm and apparently has many health benefits. I think we can agree that slashing a small girl’s face is something of a different problem, assuming that it did happen. I haven’t seen the referenced picture.

    Operation Cast Lead was preceded by eight years of rocket attacks, all aimed at the civilian inhabitants of cities within the 1967 border. Israel held off an attack for years, resulting in a situation where most people in Sderot were afraid to go outside. That situation has in large part been reversed.

    I have met kids from Sderot. They are clearly traumatized. It’s a miracle more of them haven’t been killed; these rockets have hit schools and houses.

    I’m not exactly sure what you want Israel to do. This is Catch 22 situation. Lift the blockade, and you are sure to get more rockets. Attack and be condemned. Again I ask you, since so many condemnations of Operation Cast Lead include casualty counts: at what point is an attack on Gaza justified? When 100 Israelis die? 1000? 10000? The Laws of War do not reference comparative casualty counts. Nations are not expected to wait for high casualty rates before responding.

  3. karimguy

    To that Zionist calling himself Hohpmi,
    Me and I assume the larger part of the world are really getting sick of individuals like you, hiding their contempt for basic human decency behind lies, halftruth and clever manipulations.To give you an example:you say that comparing the behaviour of Israel to Nazis is anti-jewish and is equal to those lousy morons seen in this demonstration calling for the people of Gaza to be wiped from the face of the earth. Just to think about that a little shows what a fraud you and your zionist ilk are.When I compare Israel to Nazis, even if the comparison is invalid, it is because I expect them to adhere to basic human standars and NOT to Nazi standards.Now when I call for the people of Gaza to be wiped out I am effectively condoning Nazi behaviour.Israel effectively held of an attack for years? Excuse me?You mean before the massacre of Cast Lead it didnt kill Palestinians in Gaza by the thousands,including very dangerous fishermen, terrorist daddies picnicing with their families and attack nuclear bomb facilities hiding as Gaza power stations?Since 1967 Israel has bombed,starved, and bleed Palestinians in the occupied territories. What are Palestinians to do?Stop the rockets?Dont people have a right to self-defence?You are nothing but a freak siding with the gorilla in his fight against a toddler.You are not only a freak, you are a liar.The ceasefire was broken by Israel on November 4 2008. It was working. Hamas was sticking to its obligation. Israel broke it. Those are the facts.
    What is Israel to do?How about joining the rest of the world,abandoing its colonialism and stop being a pain in everybodys ass?But what is Israel to do?.Wait for the casualties to reach 20? No Nation could possibly accept that! Ofcourse!Thats it. Bombing hospitals, UNRWA food storage facilities, universities and children is always the perfect solution!Oh the joys of being a Nazi!

  4. hophmi

    Karim:

    Try to communicate without the name-calling.

    Israel’s standards are certainly no worse (and a lot better) than America’s or Britain’s. These countries have killed far, far more civilians in Iraq in wars where neither faced an immediate threat. They didn’t text the civilians and ask them to leave, either.

    Obviously, any armed conflict is going to result in civilian casualties. That is why it is not a good idea to fire rockets at the civilians of a country with a military that is much stronger than you are. No rockets, no need for Cast Lead. Believers in human decency do not fire rockets at civilians.

    If the Palestinians care so much about human decency, they would not lionize suicide bombers as societal heroes. People who strap on bombs and blow up children in pizzerias are not practitioners of human decency.

    Comparing Israelis with Nazis is considered antisemitism by the EU. You can take up your argument with them if you don’t agree with the definition. Israel and the Palestinians are involved in a land conflict. No one is trying to wipe the Palestinians out en masse. If that were the case, there would be many, many more dead people, and Israel would have annexed the West Bank.

    I’d shelve the constantly repeated story about Israel breaking the ceasefire on November 4, 2008. Analysis shows not that Hamas was sticking to its obligations, but that Hamas was using the time to re-arm. Israel defended its border from Hamas militants attempting to infiltrate it. It was Hamas who broke the ceasefire, and Hamas who manipulated the media into covering the story as Israel’s breach. It seems that unless Israelis die, the media cares little about what Hamas does. But an unsuccessful terrorist attack is still a terrorist attack. Like the story that Israel’s Camp David offer was not good enough, this one came months after the fact, when Palestinians realized they needed points in the media.

    The international community cares little for these he-started-it games. Political condemnations aside, most of the West (and a lot of the Arab world) understands that a country cannot tolerate rocket fire in its cities. They also understand that Hamasniks are not really democrats. Countries have rights (and obligations) to defend themselves again terrorists who target their civilians. When the Palestinians learn that, they’ll have learned a valuable lesson about being a state rather than being a collection of fractious guerrilla movements. The Zionists learned this lesson a long time ago, and it is one reason they have a state and Palestinians do not.

    When terrorists use civilian areas for protection, they cease to become protected structures. Again, if you don’t want a repeat of Cast Lead, don’t fire rockets in Sderot. No one will tolerate it, and Max Blumenthal is not coming to save you.

    If you want a state, build one rather than trying to dismantle someone else’s. In the West Bank, Palestinians are starting to realize this, and there is less terrorism, less checkpoints and roadblocks, and more institution-building.

  5. ImadK

    This is primarily a response to hophmi. The main reason for Operation Cast Lead was not neccesarily for defense but mainly deterrrence. But it looked as if the war last year didn’t make Israel that much safer but has in fact hurt its position.

    Would you consider this article in Haaretz to be an apologist for Hamas?
    Israel’s 10 worst errors of the decade
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1138809.html
    I think that the last point is more poignant and should be at the very least considered by Israelis and supporters of that massacre in Gaza: “The Siege of Gaza – The siege corrupts the moral values of all Israelis, who, whether or not they are aware of what is being done to the people of Gaza, bear ultimate responsibility for all acts being carried out in their name. ”

    As some other people have pointed out, Operation Cast lead has NOT ended:

    Such brutal folly – but now prepare for Cast Lead II
    http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091227/OPINION/712269962/1080

  6. hophmi

    Deterrence is always a part of armed conflict. Cast Lead was about stopping rocket fire and deterring Hamas from doing worse. On that account it seems to have worked to some extent.

    I think the blockade of Gaza is not good for anyone, but there are not so many other choices, and Israel is not the sole enforcer of the blockade. Nevertheless, it is not a policy I’m especially crazy about. If the Egyptians did their jobs at the border, it might not be necessary.

    I don’t see a Cast Lead II happening anytime soon. This sort of speculation is always rampant in the Middle East.

  7. karimguy

    hophmi,
    you really are amazing. Everything that has been carefully rebutted and painstakingly analyzed by the Goldstone report,Human Rights Watch,The Red Cross,Breaking the silence ecs are declared null and void.But I guess they are all just a bunch of Antisemites.You are a master manipulator: Just look at how you twist the cease-fire.The aim of it was not for Hamas to disarm but for them to stop the rockets.They stuck to the cease-fire.Like all colonizers you jump from demand to demand,all the while beating your chest in self-righteousness, but why why wont they recognize us?Trying to dismantle Israel?Are you serious?You dont want me to namecall you?Isnt it Israel,recognized by the majority of the world to be in the wrong,dismantling Palestine, building colonies in East Jerusalem, building a wall through the West Bank, transfering 400 000 of its citizens onto occupied territory?But it is the Palestinians trying to dismantle nuclear Israel? Jesus.You people make my head spin.The International Court of Justice has already declared the wall and the settlements to be illegal. Norwege and Great Britain are already boycotting products and firms associated with the settlements. Where did you get your whole world from?Is the coward Hosni Mubarak or the presidential failure Obama the whole world?America and her ilk have never been on good terms with international law. Just look at the yearly vote for resolution 242 in the General Assembly.Its the whole world against the United States and Israel.You are really calling the Gaza massacre an armed conflict?1400 dead to 13?Is that an armed conflict? I do not give a flying tweep about what the EU supposedly says. And no for christ sake there is NO evidence that Hamas used Palestinians as human shields. It has been debunked again and again and again.Get it into you skull.
    “Israel warns Gaza of “shoah”
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL2868601720080229

  8. karimguy

    “I think the blockade of Gaza is not good for anyone, ”

    A liberal Zionist.Your heart is indeed very pure.

  9. hophmi

    Again, I don’t think trying to infiltrate the border is keeping the ceasefire. The media does not report failed Hamas attacks.

    I’m not clear on who Israel is not recognizing. Israel recognizes the Palestinians.

    You make calls for Israel and United States to respect international law, but no call for Hamas to stop targetting civilians in terror attacks. So what you want is not adherence to international law. What you want is for international law to apply to everybody but you. That means your beef is political, not legal.

    There is no yearly vote on Resolution 242. Resolution 242 is a security council resolution that calls for a negotiated settlement.

    I place little relevance in the action of the General Assembly, an irrelevant body that is there to make meaningless pronouncements about all manner of things. That Libya votes to censure Israel every year and European countries go along because they want free-flowing oil is not something I really care about.

    Again, you’re focusing on casualty statistics. In war the sides are not necessarily equal, and the stronger side is not required to apologize for that. Obviously, Israel is not intent on waiting for more Jews to be killed so that they will have “more justification.”

    There is evidence that Hamas used human shields during Cast Lead. See:

    http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/37163864.html

    http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=15466

  10. aview999

    Max, I love all your submissions. My only complaint is it’s too long inbetween for new ones. Believe me, I check every friggin’ day. Are you writing a new book or what? (RepG. I read and immediately bought copies for family)
    Come’on man. Get a move on! You’ve got plenty of material out there. Need to hear from ya more often.

    Thanks!

  11. stevelaudig

    Perhaps if they are so sure about their righteousness why do they need American dollars to do what they do. It has ceased to be in the interests of the U.S. to fund Israel as it has. It has become what it was created in reaction to. that’s what happens to thieves of other’s property. Stealing, lying and murder… Max is the most truthful journalist out there. A refreshing differenc. Watched Blitzer tongue the Israeli ambassador during an “interview” on CNN claiming Iran is dangerous. The interview was more like watching ball room dancing partners– they knew each other’s moves perfectly. It was seamlessly nauseating. Blitzer is a stenographer or a scrivener but never a journalist. Probably an Israeli agent.

  12. hophmi

    They don’t need American tax dollars. At this point the loans are symbolic, and most of the money comes back to the US in the form of defense purchases.

    I guess, according to your logic, journalists who don’t give the side you’re against a hard enough time, are agents of that side. I guess that would make Max a Palestinian agent.

  13. weezie

    The loans are symbolic? Symbolic of what? Our ridiculous, senseless coddling of that pointless, violent, entitled bunch of jerks?

    Why do we have to pledge ourselves to defending these assholes? Let them get themselves into whatever conflict they want to get into, but if they get their asses handed to them by a neighbor who is tired of their shit, then oh well. Nice knowing you, twats.

  14. hophmi

    Entitled? It is interesting to describe a nation of people who all do army service as entitled. Israel’s economy is successful enough that it does not need foreign aid. Since most of it comes back to the US anyway, it’s hardly as bad as the billions going to Arab and Muslim oil dictatorship, for which we get less than nothing.

    I am not worried about Israel losing a war to a regional foe, but the US ultimately supports Israel because the alternative, supporting weak dictatorships in the Arab world, makes no sense, and because most Americans agree with the policy.

    The Arabs are not afraid of Israel. They are afraid of Iran. There is a good reason for that.

  15. weezie

    What does doing army service have to do with a sense of entitlement? How ridiculous. They are not mutually exclusive.

    If they don’t need the money, why is their hand always out? Seriously, it is always out. And sorry, if I give you money so that you can buy something from me, you are still getting money from me. Let them buy shit from us on their own dime. Oh that’s right. They don’t have a dime.

    Having an ally that you give aid to and do business with is one thing. Having a selfish and entitled ally that demands money and uncritical, unwavering support even though said ally doesn’t even try to act like a mature, sober, and worthy member of the world community is just appalling.

  16. hophmi

    Their hand is not always out, and a loan is not a gift. Israel’s economy is doing fine.

    Mature members of the international community protect their citizens. Israel does not demand or receive uncritical, unwavering support from America or anyplace else like, say, Saudi Arabia does.

  17. wlonw

    hopmi – You say that “mature members of the international community protect their citizens.” The citizens of that area have indeed been trying to protect themselves for many years from the theft of their land by the Zionists, and the terrorist attacks of the Irgun against their villages. I notice that quite conveniently, of course, you never bring up the fact that the Palestinians have only and forever been reacting to the theft of their homeland and the treatment they have received from a group of people who have no, and never had any, regard for them as human beings. When Israel can face up to their own evil, perhaps then the Palestinians can do also. Until then, we as the United States owe it to the world to stop supporting that evil with approx. 5.5 billion dollars a year in aid to Israel. And we need to speak out against the power of the Jews in America who would have us support that evil forever. Heard of AIPAC?

  18. ahd

    hophmi,

    ”Again, these people are not exactly reflective of the mainstream Jewish population, and again, it would be simple to go to a pro-Palestinian rally and find people willing to say anti-Jewish things, compare Israel to Nazi Germany, and so on.”

    it seems that you might have missed the point. its not about going to a rally hearing the hate either from a palestinian or pro-israeli at their rallies. its the fact that because jews have experencied the persecutions, the ethnic cleansing, the segrations, the fear, the deaths in their history, that in some sort of utopian ideal, the israelis (or jews) wont do to others what was done to them. thats the point of the video. its not anti-israeli or anti-jew or pro-palestinian or going to this rally or that rally. its a video for the israelis and jews to reflect on who they have become since israel’s inception and how the opressed have become the opresser.

    its classic to cry anti-semitism but what do you call what israelis are doing to the palestinians? is israel or the jewish people incapable of being racist towards arabs or palestinians or non-jews and ethopian jews?

    ”Israel’s standards are certainly no worse (and a lot better) than America’s or Britain’s. These countries have killed far, far more civilians in Iraq in wars where neither faced an immediate threat. They didn’t text the civilians and ask them to leave, either.”

    why do you find it necessary to compare israel to the americans and brits? why do most israelis always find it necessary to compare themselves to the west? because you’re a democracy? if you want to compare, why not compare on israel’s treatment of its minorities?

    ”If the Palestinians care so much about human decency, they would not lionize suicide bombers as societal heroes. People who strap on bombs and blow up children in pizzerias are not practitioners of human decency.”

    clearly, you have not reached the lowest depths of an average palestinian. most human beings wont. hence, you will never understand it and you will always dehumanize it. i’m not for it, but you havent realized that just maybe, israeli actions may be to blame.

    ”If you want a state, build one rather than trying to dismantle someone else’s.”

    priceless. do you see the irony? dont give the over-used justification that the holy land is promised to the jews by god. if that was the case, then the jews didnt need the west and their guilt to help create and subsidise the country. god would have given it to them on his own and subsidised it with faith.

    ”You make calls for Israel and United States to respect international law, but no call for Hamas to stop targetting civilians in terror attacks. So what you want is not adherence to international law. What you want is for international law to apply to everybody but you. That means your beef is political, not legal.”

    actually, as you clearly pointed out, all israelis are conscripted. even after their service, they’re put into reserves. hence, israel doesnt have civilians per se, except the ultra-orthodox. the curriculim in israeli/settler schools preaches just as much hate as does the palestinian schools, otherwise, simply put, the palestinian-israelis would have already found a solution to their problem.

    you and most israelis dont seem to understand that as long as there is a disgruntled palestinian, the rockets and bombs will keep coming. and vice versa for the palestinians wit israeli retaliation. the only difference is that the palestinians have the ability to absorb the casualties while the israelis dont.

    ”When terrorists use civilian areas for protection, they cease to become protected structures.”

    this is why israelis wont understand the palestinians. hamas is made up of civilians. its up to the israelis to bomb a civilian area or not.

    ”Israel and the Palestinians are involved in a land conflict.”

    correct. which means the israelis would be guilty of ethnic cleansing.

    ”I’m not exactly sure what you want Israel to do.”

    how about respecting a palestinain state as EAST jerusalem as its capital? if thats too much for you then, an end to racist israeli laws aimed at israeli arabs, assimilating palestinians into israel as an equal citizen with a one man one vote. it really is simple. peace is the only option israelis have. it just depends on which road it wants to take. and dont tell me that israelis and palestinians dont have anything in common…who would of thought the plo and idf were on the same side during the gaza war?

    time is definitely on the palestinian side.

  19. hophmi

    “it seems that you might have missed the point. its not about going to a rally hearing the hate either from a palestinian or pro-israeli at their rallies. its the fact that because jews have experencied the persecutions, the ethnic cleansing, the segrations, the fear, the deaths in their history, that in some sort of utopian ideal, the israelis (or jews) wont do to others what was done to them. thats the point of the video. its not anti-israeli or anti-jew or pro-palestinian or going to this rally or that rally. its a video for the israelis and jews to reflect on who they have become since israel’s inception and how the opressed have become the opresser.”

    “In some sort of utopian ideal . . . ” Exactly. The international community is holding Israel to a utopian ideal that no other country is held to. The world is not a utopian place.

    “its classic to cry anti-semitism but what do you call what israelis are doing to the palestinians? is israel or the jewish people incapable of being racist towards arabs or palestinians or non-jews and ethopian jews?”

    I haven’t cried antisemitism. I never said that Jews are not capable of racism. The fact is that Israel is most racially diverse country in the Middle East. There is some societal discrimination there like anywhere else, but this conflict is political, not racial.

    “why do you find it necessary to compare israel to the americans and brits? why do most israelis always find it necessary to compare themselves to the west? because you’re a democracy? if you want to compare, why not compare on israel’s treatment of its minorities?”

    Because Israel faces a constant imminent threat, and the Brits and the Americans do not, and because Israel’s track record with collateral damage is better than both.

    “clearly, you have not reached the lowest depths of an average palestinian. most human beings wont. hence, you will never understand it and you will always dehumanize it. i’m not for it, but you havent realized that just maybe, israeli actions may be to blame.”

    My people were herded in concentration camps 60 years ago, and were persecuted for well over 1000 years before that. I know of no organized suicide bombing campaign targetting innocent civilians conducted by them.

    “actually, as you clearly pointed out, all israelis are conscripted. even after their service, they’re put into reserves. hence, israel doesnt have civilians per se, except the ultra-orthodox. the curriculim in israeli/settler schools preaches just as much hate as does the palestinian schools, otherwise, simply put, the palestinian-israelis would have already found a solution to their problem.”

    Conscription does not make every Israeli a legal target, as everyone with a basic knowledge of international law knows. A person is not a perpetual soldier because he serves a month of reserve duty every year. And I guess from your logic, an infant is a soldier because he will be conscripted in the future. Your answer is a straight justification of murder.

    “you and most israelis dont seem to understand that as long as there is a disgruntled palestinian, the rockets and bombs will keep coming. and vice versa for the palestinians wit israeli retaliation. the only difference is that the palestinians have the ability to absorb the casualties while the israelis dont.”

    So until all Palestinians are happy, they will use terrorism to achieve their goals. Therefore, there seems to be little incentive to negotiate with such people.

    “this is why israelis wont understand the palestinians. hamas is made up of civilians. its up to the israelis to bomb a civilian area or not.”

    It’s funny that you think an Israeli baby is a soldier and a Hamas suicide bomber is a civilian. Maybe that’s why Hamas members hide behind women and children.

    “how about respecting a palestinain state as EAST jerusalem as its capital? if thats too much for you then, an end to racist israeli laws aimed at israeli arabs, assimilating palestinians into israel as an equal citizen with a one man one vote. it really is simple. peace is the only option israelis have. it just depends on which road it wants to take. and dont tell me that israelis and palestinians dont have anything in common…who would of thought the plo and idf were on the same side during the gaza war?

    time is definitely on the palestinian side.”

    I wouldn’t say time is on the Palestinian side. Time is only on the Palestinian side if you believe that the Israelis are such amazing and forgiving people that they will commit national suicide so that the Palestinians can realize their maximalist aims. History tells a different story.

  20. weezie

    Mature members of the international community eh? Witness how they treated their one and only ally, Turkey. Diss the ambassador, brag that you are dissing the ambassador, arrange the press conference to make him look like crap, brag that you are arranging the press conference to make him look like crap, refuse to shake his hand, brag to the press that you are refusing to shake his hand. Why? Was there an international incident? A stray bomb? A broken treaty? No. There is a Turkish soap opera running that is critical of Israel (mind you, Turkey has cooperated with and defended Israel from critics in the Arab world time and time again – but not even a soap opera can be critical of Israel – that kind of thing DEMANDS a diplomatic incident). LMAO!!! These fucking people are ridiculous. They cannot be taken seriously as a country. They should just fold up their tents and go back to eating Spagettios or whatever toddlers do for fun. Because truly, they cannot be considered a serious member of the international community.

    I am sick of giving “gifts” idiots like this.

  21. Max Post author

    Hophmi is echoing Israeli talking points to a tee. There is no doubt he is a hasbara spammer and I would not be surprised if he were actually paid by the Israeli Foreign Ministry to troll blogs that present a critical perspective on Israel. See this piece by Jonathan Cook in the National:
    http://www.countercurrents.org/cook210709.htm

  22. hophmi

    That’s pretty weak, Max. No one is paying me. Nothing you have said or done with regard to this issue would be out of place for a member of any mainstream Arabist organization. Should I assume that you’re an employee of the PLO negotiating team or the Hamas propaganda team? Or maybe I should assume that you get paid by some neo-Nazi group to make Jews look as bad as possible, since that is what you seem to delight in doing.

    I said above that I am not a big fan of the blockade. I am no hasbara employee. It takes a certain measure of self-righteous arrogance on your part to make an accusation like that rather than actually addressing my arguments.

  23. ahd

    hophmi,

    once again, you’ve missed the point. in this instance, you’ve missed the point of this paragraph:

    “it seems that you might have missed the point…..not anti-israeli or anti-jew or pro-palestinian or going to this rally or that rally. its a video for the israelis and jews to reflect on who they have become since israel’s inception and how the opressed have become the opresser.”

    “In some sort of utopian ideal . . . ” Exactly. The international community is holding Israel to a utopian ideal that no other country is held to. The world is not a utopian place.”

    granted, the wording ‘utopian ideal’ was wrongly used as english is not my first language, but it was used as a cynical belief that jews, would not discriminate against a minority. its not the international community that is holding israel to a ‘utopian ideal’, anymore. its israeli citizens and jewish americans that have started to take a hard look at how israel’s treatment of the palestinians is creating an unstable environment for itself in the region.

    ”I haven’t cried antisemitism. I never said that Jews are not capable of racism. The fact is that Israel is most racially diverse country in the Middle East. There is some societal discrimination there like anywhere else, but this conflict is political, not racial.”

    “why do you find it necessary to compare israel to the americans and brits? why do most israelis always find it necessary to compare themselves to the west? because you’re a democracy? if you want to compare, why not compare on israel’s treatment of its minorities?”

    ”Because Israel faces a constant imminent threat, and the Brits and the Americans do not, and because Israel’s track record with collateral damage is better than both.”

    i think g.w. bush and his entire administration would disagree with you on this. please, dont bring up israel’s track record on collateral damage, history has already shown that israel does not care for the consequences of collateral damage. they target a building and do the necessary dance on tv by sending out their spokespeople to apologize for the casualties. while they are forced to get on the tv to apologize, it becomes clear that their spokespeople are starting to get annoyed with the fact that they have to apologize.

    ”My people were herded in concentration camps 60 years ago, and were persecuted for well over 1000 years before that. I know of no organized suicide bombing campaign targetting innocent civilians conducted by them.”

    why do you find it necessary to bring up the holocaust? this isnt about your people or my people. while theres no justification for the holocaust, i fail to find a correlation between the holocaust and suicide bombings. i dont think i’ve heard much about israel welcoming armenians (prior to armenia declaring independence) into israel because they were persecuted. nor israel helped to mediate between the hutus and tutsis during the 90s. its not about the actions of the people being persecuted, its about why are they being persucuted. the jews, the palestinians, the armenians and so many different ethnicities can claim to be being persecuted. even the japanes are guilty of persecutions of koreans, chinese etc. during ww2. unfortunately for the israelis, there actions show that the persecuted have become the persecutors. why are the palestinians being persecuted?

    ”And I guess from your logic, an infant is a soldier because he will be conscripted in the future. Your answer is a straight justification of murder.”

    come on, be honest with yourself. you know thats how most israelis see the palestinians, a potential ‘terrorist’ or ‘suicide bomber’.

    ”So until all Palestinians are happy, they will use terrorism to achieve their goals. Therefore, there seems to be little incentive to negotiate with such people.”

    no, you cant please everyone. the goal is to enact policies that dont breed more hatred towards israelis, hence a peaceful israel with its neighbors.

    ”this is why israelis wont understand the palestinians. hamas is made up of civilians. its up to the israelis to bomb a civilian area or not.”

    ”It’s funny that you think an Israeli baby is a soldier and a Hamas suicide bomber is a civilian. Maybe that’s why Hamas members hide behind women and children.”

    no, i havent thought that. you fail to understand the difference. when a palestinian is born, they have the choice to not being a hamas member. whereas when an israeli is born, you are required by law to be a soldier and chastised if you’re not. killing women and children is wrong, period. you also fail to understand the difference between institutional organisations and grass roots organisations.

    ”I wouldn’t say time is on the Palestinian side. Time is only on the Palestinian side if you believe that the Israelis are such amazing and forgiving people that they will commit national suicide so that the Palestinians can realize their maximalist aims. History tells a different story.”

    i dont expect israelis forgiving anything. they know by now that you reap what you sow. israelis will need to come to the realisation sooner or later, that they only have serval options ahead of them. and none of those options are the ones they will want to take but will need to, ie rabin. and if history tells a different story, the history that i and you know, tells us that decisions for the future of the israelis will be made in london or new york or d.c and paris just as it was for the palestinians pre-1948. its up to israelis to either accept the palestinian as his equal in israeli society or give them their state and capital. and its not a palestinian maximalist aim. its the reality in front of the israelis eyes. israel cant afford to continue the path they have taken. that is suicide.

  24. hophmi

    Me: ”Because Israel faces a constant imminent threat, and the Brits and the Americans do not, and because Israel’s track record with collateral damage is better than both.”

    Ahd: i think g.w. bush and his entire administration would disagree with you on this. please, dont bring up israel’s track record on collateral damage, history has already shown that israel does not care for the consequences of collateral damage. they target a building and do the necessary dance on tv by sending out their spokespeople to apologize for the casualties. while they are forced to get on the tv to apologize, it becomes clear that their spokespeople are starting to get annoyed with the fact that they have to apologize.

    Me: You agree with George Bush now? That IS cynical. I don’t remember America apologizing when they have killed innocent Iraqis or Afghanis in air strikes. There were tens of thousands Iraqis killed during Operation Iraqi Freedom. That is a much higher number than were killed during Cast Lead.

    Ahd: come on, be honest with yourself. you know thats how most israelis see the palestinians, a potential ‘terrorist’ or ’suicide bomber’.

    Me: You wrote that there are no Israeli civilians because of conscription. It is an awful, awful argument, and while Israelis may see Palestinians as potentially violent (Palestinian leaders, are, after all, always talking about the next Palestinian Intifada), that does not mean most Israelis feel there are no Palestinian civilians.

    Ahd: when a palestinian is born, they have the choice to not being a hamas member. whereas when an israeli is born, you are required by law to be a soldier and chastised if you’re not.

    Me: So? Your argument is still invalid, legally and morally. On the contrary, if joining Hamas is a choice, all the worse that many Palestinians have actually chosen to join a terrorist organization.

    Ahd: why do you find it necessary to bring up the holocaust? this isnt about your people or my people. while theres no justification for the holocaust, i fail to find a correlation between the holocaust and suicide bombings.

    Me: You cited your people’s grievances as justification for killing civilians. I am merely pointing out other, much worse examples of persecution where the persecuted did not resort to killing innocent people en masse.

    Ahd: i dont think i’ve heard much about israel welcoming armenians (prior to armenia declaring independence) into israel because they were persecuted. nor israel helped to mediate between the hutus and tutsis during the 90s.

    Me: What does this have to do with this discussion? Why would Armenians want to go to Israel? Why would Hutus and Tutsis? Did anyone welcome these people? Israel has taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees, more than any Arab state I know of.

    Ahd: its not about the actions of the people being persecuted, its about why are they being persucuted. the jews, the palestinians, the armenians and so many different ethnicities can claim to be being persecuted. even the japanes are guilty of persecutions of koreans, chinese etc. during ww2. unfortunately for the israelis, there actions show that the persecuted have become the persecutors. why are the palestinians being persecuted?

    Me: Well, mostly because your fellow Arabs felt it would be a convenient way to fight Israel. If they cared about you, they would have taken you in and made you citizens in the 1940s and 1950s, just as Israel did with Jews who were expelled from Arab countries. You’re also persecuted because you’ve turned to suicide bombing and that has created a situation where it is hard for Israelis to trust Palestinians as they did before. That is why suicide bombing is illegal; it is not only because of the price paid by the victims, but because of the price paid by the society of the suicide bomber.

  25. ahd

    first of all, i’m not palestinian. and even if i was, i’m at a point to where i dont see things as if it were your people or my people. i am an arab though, but this is insignificant of the points i have been making. and thanks for organizing the flow of the quotes. it helps people see that your generic responses, which have been over used by the israeli government, no longer carries weight in today’s world.

    hoph: You agree with George Bush now? That IS cynical. I don’t remember America apologizing when they have killed innocent Iraqis or Afghanis in air strikes. There were tens of thousands Iraqis killed during Operation Iraqi Freedom. That is a much higher number than were killed during Cast Lead.

    me: whether i agree with g. bush or not (or obama for what its worth), is irrelevant. it was obviously to counter your argument that israel is the ‘only country to be in a constant imminent threat’. which means that i have refuted your argument. stay focused on the point being made and dont go off on a tangent.

    ”me: come on, be honest with yourself. you know thats how most israelis see the palestinians, a potential ‘terrorist’ or ’suicide bomber’.

    hoph: You wrote that there are no Israeli civilians because of conscription. It is an awful, awful argument, and while Israelis may see Palestinians as potentially violent (Palestinian leaders, are, after all, always talking about the next Palestinian Intifada), that does not mean most Israelis feel there are no Palestinian civilians.”

    me: you cant be serious. whether its an awful argument or not, it does not change the fact that it is true. can we at least acknowledge that some of the city people agree that there are palestinian civilians, but that ALL of the settlers believe that the palestinian has no rights and will end up being ‘terrorists’?

    ”me: when a palestinian is born, they have the choice to not being a hamas member. whereas when an israeli is born, you are required by law to be a soldier and chastised if you’re not.

    hoph: So? Your argument is still invalid, legally and morally. On the contrary, if joining Hamas is a choice, all the worse that many Palestinians have actually chosen to join a terrorist organization.”

    me: whether my argument is valid or invalid based on legal and moral codes, once again, is irrelavent. why? because as we all know, legally, israel abides only by its laws, no one elses. morally, israelis always claim the moral high ground based on what was promised to them. legally and morally, it does not change the fact of my original post. which means that my post is a fact. the next step is, what, why, and how are the palestinians chosing to join hamas rather than fatah. this is what you and the israelis should be asking yourselves. once you find the answers, then you’ll be able to understand your ‘palestinian enemy’.

    me: ”why do you find it necessary to bring up the holocaust? this isnt about your people or my people. while theres no justification for the holocaust, i fail to find a correlation between the holocaust and suicide bombings.

    hoph: ”You cited your people’s grievances as justification for killing civilians. I am merely pointing out other, much worse examples of persecution where the persecuted did not resort to killing innocent people en masse.”

    sorry, but you cant bring up the holocaust card whenever you want and not be responsible for ‘diluting’ the events of the holocaust. you (and the israelis) do it no honor (nor the victims) by using it continously to justify your behavior to the palestinians. any ethnicity can claim to being persecuted. the reaction of the persecuted is subjective. while the palestinians find that their form of resistance to persecution is suicide bombing, the natives in bolivia found that resisitance to persecution was to elect a native as president. its subjective and depends on the situation and options available to them. while i do not condone firing rockets from gaza, i do however i understand why. they were freely-elected, by their people. and no one gave them a chance to behave appropiately as a responsible government should. on the contrary happend. you and the israelis would have been pleasantly surprised how, once a party is in power, they are actually limited in scope of how they can behave. and just in case what i just wrote didnt sink in, i’ll go ahead and provide you with several examples that prove your point ”much worse examples of persecution where the persecuted did not resort to killing innocent people en masse.” the ira, the radical sikh movement in india, and once again the tutsi and huti massacres in rhwanda.

    ””me: i dont think i’ve heard much about israel welcoming armenians (prior to armenia declaring independence) into israel because they were persecuted. nor israel helped to mediate between the hutus and tutsis during the 90s.

    hoph: What does this have to do with this discussion? Why would Armenians want to go to Israel? Why would Hutus and Tutsis? Did anyone welcome these people? Israel has taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees, more than any Arab state I know of.”’

    me: the purpose of bringing up the armenians, hutus and tutsis was that if israel was as compassionate is it claims to be, why didnt they do anything to mediate, shelter the persecuted? and to answer your question, yes. syria and lebanon have a striving armenian community. and yes, the uae has invested in rhwanda’s infrastructure which in turn creates jobs and increases wages and enhances the standard of living. and no, you are wrong or you’ve failed to mention one word when you wrote ‘Israel has taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees,’. you’ve failed to include the word jewish. and no you are wrong when you wrote ‘ more than any Arab state I know of’. clearly you dont know how many iraqi refugees there are, or palestinian refugees, or kurdish refugees. maybe, for your statement to be true, you would need to accept the palestinians into your country.

    ”’hop: Well, mostly because your fellow Arabs felt it would be a convenient way to fight Israel. If they cared about you, they would have taken you in and made you citizens in the 1940s and 1950s, just as Israel did with Jews who were expelled from Arab countries. You’re also persecuted because you’ve turned to suicide bombing and that has created a situation where it is hard for Israelis to trust Palestinians as they did before. That is why suicide bombing is illegal; it is not only because of the price paid by the victims, but because of the price paid by the society of the suicide bomber.””

    me: ‘If they cared about you, they would have taken you in and made you citizens in the 1940s and 1950s,’ this shows that you dont have the ability to ‘put yourself in someone else’s shoes’. which indicates that you’re heartless and unable to understand why people dont agree with your views. if you had asked a palestinian in the 40s and 50s if they wanted to become egyptians, jordanians, syrian, lebanese or any other citizen they would have said no. and that they wanted to go back to there homes. granted there were a few that chose to be citizens of their host country, but the overwhelming feeling was that they wanted to go back to their homes. as a result, you have the camps and as a result, the arab dictators capitalized on that sentiment to boost their images in the arab world as the ‘palestinian champion’. and just in case you didnt know, there is a striving jewish community in morroco and tunisia. as an arab-muslim, i feel a great loss when i hear the jews left my country. they were a part of our community. i have no hate for jews or israelis. i do have ill feelings towards israeli policy. the more the (any) israeli government pumps the nationalistic, anti-palestinian fervor into the israeli minds, the more disconnected the israelis really become with who the jews were in arab society, prior to the creation of israel and they will always feel alien in the middle east, despite living in it. this is one reason why, the israelis will never have peace with their neighbors, even if it is on paper.

    the more you post, the more arrogant you sound. the more you post, the more i find that you clearly have no idea of who your ‘enemy’ is. the more you post, the sillier you sound. for your sake, stop making a fool of yourself and your cause. no one wants to push israel into the sea other than the nuts in iran. and they arent even arabs and the arabs dont even want iran meddling in their affairs. so take it easy on the ‘we are proud’ ‘we have been through alot’ ‘we’ve been promised’ speech. the more you spit the jargon, the more insecure you sound. we all know your talking points.

    this is the last i’ll be posting on this. i’ve taken way too much time on this matter and used the wrong forum.

    ma aplogies to max blumenthal and all.

  26. hophmi

    “first of all, i’m not palestinian. and even if i was, i’m at a point to where i dont see things as if it were your people or my people. i am an arab though, but this is insignificant of the points i have been making. and thanks for organizing the flow of the quotes. it helps people see that your generic responses, which have been over used by the israeli government, no longer carries weight in today’s world.”

    You spoke about reaching the lowest depths of a Palestinian, so I assumed you were a Palestinian. I apologize.

    “me: whether my argument is valid or invalid based on legal and moral codes, once again, is irrelavent. why? because as we all know, legally, israel abides only by its laws, no one elses. morally, israelis always claim the moral high ground based on what was promised to them. legally and morally, it does not change the fact of my original post. which means that my post is a fact.”

    I’m not quite sure how you can say that legal and moral codes don’t matter and then chastise Israel for not observing them.

    Israel claims the moral high ground based on its history, its status as a world’s only Jewish state in a neighborhood of 22 Muslim Arab states, the region’s only democracy, the region’s most progressive society, and many other grounds. It is not just about the Bible.

    Telling me about the subjective feelings of the Palestinians is not “fact.”

    ” the next step is, what, why, and how are the palestinians chosing to join hamas rather than fatah. this is what you and the israelis should be asking yourselves. once you find the answers, then you’ll be able to understand your ‘palestinian enemy’.”

    I understand why. I’m well aware of Fatah corruption. I know not every Palestinian is a terrorist. I think the Palestinians are terribly led, and for years have been told that they can simply out-wait the Jews, when they will eventually outnumber them, and then massacre them. Thus, they place little emphasis on building their own society. The Jews were also under occupation before 1948. It was not the most benign occupation either. The Jews used the time to develop a civil society and a working government, so that when the occupation ended, Israel was ready to go.

    “sorry, but you cant bring up the holocaust card whenever you want and not be responsible for ‘diluting’ the events of the holocaust. you (and the israelis) do it no honor (nor the victims) by using it continously to justify your behavior to the palestinians. any ethnicity can claim to being persecuted. the reaction of the persecuted is subjective. while the palestinians find that their form of resistance to persecution is suicide bombing, the natives in bolivia found that resisitance to persecution was to elect a native as president. its subjective and depends on the situation and options available to them. while i do not condone firing rockets from gaza, i do however i understand why. they were freely-elected, by their people. and no one gave them a chance to behave appropiately as a responsible government should. on the contrary happend. you and the israelis would have been pleasantly surprised how, once a party is in power, they are actually limited in scope of how they can behave. and just in case what i just wrote didnt sink in, i’ll go ahead and provide you with several examples that prove your point ”much worse examples of persecution where the persecuted did not resort to killing innocent people en masse.” the ira, the radical sikh movement in india, and once again the tutsi and huti massacres in rhwanda.”

    I’m not “playing the Holocaust card.” Holocaust is with a capital “H”, by the way. I’m merely using it as one historical example of persecution. The Holocaust did happen, and it can be used as a point of historical comparison in a discussion about the tactics of the oppressed.

    It’s funny that you compare the Bolivian response to persecution with the Palestinian response and call it “subjective.” The Bolivian response is both legal and admirable. The Palestinian response is illegal and self-defeating.

    “me: the purpose of bringing up the armenians, hutus and tutsis was that if israel was as compassionate is it claims to be, why didnt they do anything to mediate, shelter the persecuted? and to answer your question, yes. syria and lebanon have a striving armenian community. and yes, the uae has invested in rhwanda’s infrastructure which in turn creates jobs and increases wages and enhances the standard of living. and no, you are wrong or you’ve failed to mention one word when you wrote ‘Israel has taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees,’. you’ve failed to include the word jewish. and no you are wrong when you wrote ‘ more than any Arab state I know of’. clearly you dont know how many iraqi refugees there are, or palestinian refugees, or kurdish refugees. maybe, for your statement to be true, you would need to accept the palestinians into your country.”

    The Armenian massacre took place in 1915. Israel did not become a country until 1948. If you’d like to compare the aid Arab countries have given around the world to Israeli aid as percentage of GDP, I’m quite sure the Arabs will come up wanting. In terms of contribution to the world’s good, there is no comparison. Or should I pull out the statistics about Israeli patents and Nobel Prize winners?

    I’m glad the UAE gave something to Rwanda. You don’t appear to be familiar with the massive amount of humanitarian aid Israel gave to Rwanda refugees, including a 120-bed field hospital and 8 Hercules planes filled with humanitarian aid, while Israeli donations totalled around $15 million dollars (60 million shekels).

  27. Cliff

    “The IDF has fired more than 7,700 shells at northern Gaza since the Israeli withdrawal in September 2005, creating a problem of unexploded ordnance in heavily populated areas.”

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/06/19/israel-gaza-beach-investigation-ignores-evidence

    Read this report from HRW.

    Zionists like to mention the number of rockets fired by Hamas.

    The sheer numbers have a superficial rhetorical effect (aimed at morons/racists/partisan hacks) that compensates for the simple fact that Israel is inflicting more misery and damage and has suffered less.

    Israel’s blockade of Gaza is affecting 1.5 million people much more adversely than the crude rockets fired by Hamas.

    Israel is COLONIZING Palestine.

    The West Bank has been completely fragmented. No viable Palestinian State can exist now.

    Gaza’s economy was destroyed by Israel. Read Sara Roy’s book on this subject. Etc. etc.

    Forget debating these ZioTools.

    Read as much as you can about this conflict. It’s disgusting how we’re fed the Zionist perspective only in the US.

    Organize and protest. Support BDS. Don’t waste time talking to people who justify ethnic cleansing, mass murder, colonization, racism, etc. etc. etc.

    Read the ‘World Union of Jewish Students’ “Hasbara Manual: Promoting Israel on Campus” to understand how they frame this conflict.

  28. hophmi

    Well, each and every Hamas rocket fired was fired with the express intent of killing or maiming civilians. IDF shells are to stop Hamas. So they are not the same thing, and it is not illegal under international law to leave unexploded ordinance.

    And once again, it is a fact of life that the Israelis suffer less than the residents of Gaza. This is why it is a bad idea to terrorize the civilians a state with a much stronger army than yours. Is action justified only when Israeli suffering becomes worse than Palestinian suffering?

    I’m curious as to how Israel can be colonizing a place it withdrew from. Capitalizing the word “colonizing” does not make you more right. Neither does engaging in childish name-calling.

    Who is feeding you a “Zionist” perspective? What about this perspective is Zionist?

    You don’t want to waste time talking with those who disagree with you? That’s great. Your movement will stay tiny and irrelevant, be condemned as racist by anyone familiar with EU discrimination laws and be condemned as hypocritical by anyone who has read the Hamas charter or has read a history of the conflict not written by a left-wing ideologue.

  29. Cliff

    “Well, each and every Hamas rocket fired was fired with the express intent of killing or maiming civilians. IDF shells are to stop Hamas. So they are not the same thing, and it is not illegal under international law to leave unexploded ordinance.”

    Really? Each and every one? Do tell.

    You seem so sure that each and every shell fired by the IDF are for Hamas. That each and every IDF bullet is for Hamas too, I imagine.

    “This is why it is a bad idea to terrorize the civilians a state with a much stronger army than yours. Is action justified only when Israeli suffering becomes worse than Palestinian suffering?”

    The suffering is disproportionately against the Palestinians.

    It does not matter who Hamas targets, Israel would still respond with the same brutality and cruelty aimed at the civilian population and civilian infrastructure. Time and time again, Israel has killed civilians. Only to use well-known tropes of this conflict such as ‘human shields’ or ‘firing from mosques’.

    Israel is colonizing Palestine. No it’s not colonizing Gaza. It does control Gaza’s borders. It controls the airspace. It can go in and out whenever it chooses to.

    Israel destroyed Gaza’s economy. It purposefully de-developed Gaza’s economy.

    “I’m curious as to how Israel can be colonizing a place it withdrew from. Capitalizing the word “colonizing” does not make you more right. Neither does engaging in childish name-calling.”

    I couldn’t care less about ‘name-calling’. If Israel can get away with killing civilians – among them, 300ish children – on a regular basis, whether it be in the OT or in Lebanon, then Zionist trolls on the web can deal with being called Zionist trolls.

    You do not need to occupy a piece of land to control it. Israel exerts it’s force over Gaza whenever it wants. It controls Gaza. It is blockading Gaza.

    And yes, Israel is colonizing Palestine. The settlements are illegal under international law. Israel is stealing Palestinian land and resources.

    “You don’t want to waste time talking with those who disagree with you? That’s great. Your movement will stay tiny and irrelevant, be condemned as racist by anyone familiar with EU discrimination laws and be condemned as hypocritical by anyone who has read the Hamas charter or has read a history of the conflict not written by a left-wing ideologue.”

    The issue of Hamas’s charter is a Zionist talking-point. In any situation where a Palestinian solidarity activist was conveying their perspective to a uninformed audience, they should stress that Hamas and the Arab world have agree to the 67′ borders and want to resolve the conflict. Meanwhile, Israel in action is expanding the settlements and dodging peace efforts by Obama, etc. etc.

    Furthermore, the charter and the other verbiage by Hamas pales in comparison to Israel’s actions.

    Not sure what you’re point is. I sure hope you don’t think you’re ‘winning’.

    What will happen is One-State solution where Jewish racists and supremacists will be forced to give up their privileged status on land they stole from the indigenous Palestinian.

    If what you said earlier is true (it is) – about how a weaker actor should not attack a stronger actor, because of the consequences – then the Palestinians have nothing to lose.

    Non-violent resistance is suppressed. The occupation and colonization continue.

    No amount of paternalistic myopia (which you and other Zionist trolls, who think of themselves as ‘ME experts’) is going to change the basic realities of this conflict.

    If Palestinians are already suffering – no matter what they do – then they should focus on One-State. So yea, there really isn’t a reason to engage in dialogue with Zionists like yourself.

    You are the enemy. A partisan hack, who mystifies the conflict by talking about crude rockets, that killed 13-18 people in 8 years.

    Whereas, the force and violence is overwhelmingly directed at the Palestinian civilian population.

    This is an occupation. This is not about Radical Islam or throwing Jews into the sea or Hamas’s charter. This is about LAND.

  30. hophmi

    “It does not matter who Hamas targets, Israel would still respond with the same brutality and cruelty aimed at the civilian population and civilian infrastructure. Time and time again, Israel has killed civilians. Only to use well-known tropes of this conflict such as ‘human shields’ or ‘firing from mosques’.”

    Time and again, there has been collateral damage, it’s true. And time and again, Hamas has used civilians as cover.

    “Israel is colonizing Palestine. No it’s not colonizing Gaza. It does control Gaza’s borders. It controls the airspace. It can go in and out whenever it chooses to”

    Again, why hasn’t Israel annexed the West Bank? Why would Israel spend years at the peace table? It has no incentive to do either, unless, of course, colonialism is not its aim.

    “I couldn’t care less about ‘name-calling’. If Israel can get away with killing civilians – among them, 300ish children – on a regular basis, whether it be in the OT or in Lebanon, then Zionist trolls on the web can deal with being called Zionist trolls.”

    Civilians tend to die in military conflict. That doesn’t make it illegal. What is illegal is purposefully targeting civilians like Hamas does, and what is morally bankrupt is to defend that practice and pretend that the government of the country whose civilians are targeted have no right to respond.

    “The issue of Hamas’s charter is a Zionist talking-point. In any situation where a Palestinian solidarity activist was conveying their perspective to a uninformed audience, they should stress that Hamas and the Arab world have agree to the 67? borders and want to resolve the conflict. Meanwhile, Israel in action is expanding the settlements and dodging peace efforts by Obama, etc. etc.”

    I guess it’s a talking point as long as you don’t know or care about people who were killed through Hamas’s antisemitic ideology. If you believe that Hamas would accept the ’67 borders, especially given that the height of their suicide bombing has come at the height of peace talks, you are simply naive.

    “What will happen is One-State solution where Jewish racists and supremacists will be forced to give up their privileged status on land they stole from the indigenous Palestinian”

    Uh-huh. Whatever makes you feel good.

    “You are the enemy. A partisan hack, who mystifies the conflict by talking about crude rockets, that killed 13-18 people in 8 years.”

    You, of course, are not a partisan hack. How many dead people is enough for Israel to respond?

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